No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

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No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby Junkyardboy » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:33 pm

OK before I shit out a massive rant and all the flames come in, let me first of all just say:

-I appreciate all of the time and effort invested from all the people in our community who have developed new maps and found new ones or modified existing maps
-I understand how hard it is to make a map and use unrealED,...serious props to wndg, Tim, kud and anyone else who's put out new map
-I understand our goal is to create as many new maps as possible to introduce to this upcoming season and maps that are harder to defend and promote less turtle play are preferred.

What if I told you that the reason why people can't cap on easy to defend maps and turtle tactics has nothing to do with the map being bad. What if I told you it's because you fucking suck dick at ctf and need to learn offensive teamwork and coordinating instead of bitching about how hard is is to cap.


De-fi-nition of Shitty Map:
*A map that gets created so it's impossible to play defense on and incredibly easy to solo cap, requiring absolutely no cover at all.

These new maps are complete DOG SHIT...seriously dog shit...i'm on the verge of boycotting #ipug because of how many shitty fucking ass new maps that are being accepted into the pug list.

I know some of you are gonna say "YOU ONLY LIKE DUKU", "YOU ONLY BLAH BLAH BLAH"...listen up mother fuckers, every single pug I PLAY TWO MAPS (sometimes double duku :) ), but before pugs even exisited, i've been playing isntagib for fucking 12 years. I can put money on the fact that i've played more different maps than 90% of the community. I've played competitive ctf for YEARS...i know shitty map when I see one and I know a good map when I see one.

The problem of the meta that we are in is not the maps that are impossible to cap on, but rather the lack of teamwork. Offensive teamwork hasn't evolved enough to become the new meta(coordinating offensive attacks, playing strategic offense).

If we went another season with our original map list(granted most of the maps ended up in 3 defense throughout the season), you would get evolved offensive players and the teams that excell are the ones that display the highest level of teamwork..

these new shity maps that we have are welfare shit map versions of grudge. Grudge was boarderline shit because of the elevator that allowed you to escape and solo cap without a mid dual battle. Now the shit that is out is just beyond retarded...and just because the map doesn't end up in OVERTIME, doesn't make it a competitive map.

Anyways, I can sit here for days about how fucking shitty these new maps are and trying to build impossible to defend, easy to juke flag running dog shit maps....but these pugs with the new maps are not fun at all...they got novelty of the new map going for it, but they score a 0/5 for competitiveness.


we've lowered our standard of what we call a ctf map today. I'll use a pussy as my metaphor. We've become so desperate to find new pussy, we lowered our standards to banging grenades and landmines...unacceptable...not this siick cunt


#boycottshitmaps#dimes#grenades#pussy#bringbackclassic
Last edited by Junkyardboy on Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landlines

Postby Hermione » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:44 pm

I agree with jyb, I like the old maps, such as command, klondike, pryxon, duku, etc.. These new maps are either to big or boring, or just weird. But theres good effort in them. I used to enjoy playing but now when i play and i see one of the new maps being voted i just lose interest.
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landlines

Postby Deepack » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:56 pm

I also agree. I don't really like putting anyone down but those windigo beta maps are only voted by windigo himself and I've seen only like 1 person that votes his maps other than windigo. They are far too big and have way to many corners and walls. It's just not well suited for insta imo.
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landlines

Postby kud » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:03 pm

from my experience people are unwilling to learn a map. they make judgement calls before clicking in, and confirm their bias at every opportunity. criticism for my map has been extremely inconsistent. too hard to attack, too hard to defend, boring, too much going on. I think this is very good. imo it means that people simply don't know the map yet, and this is confirmed when I see their decisions in-game. just because you aren't immediately an expert at something doesn't make it bad.
let me remind people that the problem we're trying to solve is massive over time. you don't need 10 caps or 80 grabs to prevent overtime, you need more caps than the other team. some people think the best strategy to achieve this is a low time-to-live.

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having every map be a clone of pryxon isn't a good map list
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landlines

Postby TimTim » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:11 pm

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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landlines

Postby Hermione » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:24 pm

It's no that some of us don't want to learn the map, i played many of the new maps time and time again, there are some i see that can get very far such as dusk, mesmerize and pyrolize. These 3 maps have an adequate size and have the right amount of action. The bigger the map is, the more tiring it is and boring, for example, you have to run all the way to the base to get killed, by a defense who can see you coming to them half a mile away, then you have to repeat this over and over again, it makes your hand hurt, then your mind starts to wander, then it just gets boring, and that's it. People will probably prefer a more action paced, decent sized map, that has equal opportunity for defenders and offenders. I have tried to learn these maps, but i just cant, i am not interested in playing them, its like asking a doctor to study a mechanics job.. If he doesn't like that job and is not interested in it, why would he want to learn it. It's something to think about..

Those big maps aren't useless though, they can be used for different mods, or pub servers and would be better suited for other game types, tdm, ictf, 10 v 10 ig etc...
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landlines

Postby Junkyardboy » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:19 pm

Let's be real here, we all have been playing the game for YEARRRS....with that said, you don't even need to play a map to determine if it's going to be good or not...simply looking at a map alone will tell you if it has potential or not.

It's not that we are not accepting newer maps(we have in the past, and we are currently) on maps that get played competitively. It's that when you shit out maps faster than hooker giving handjobs in a back alley, you end up with something terrible...

You clearly don't see my point Kud or Tim so let me use this extreme example as an IDEAL MAP that you both are describing to me:
Let's make a map with 10 portals in each flagroom, each portal goes into a seperate room, and in that room there will be another 10 portals that will go into another 10 seperate portals that will then have one portal that will take you back to the flag room. Throw in a couple of ramps, and a couple of bouncey pads and a couple of bridges randomly anywhere, and make sure there's 15 entrances to get into the flag room, and jump boots right on the flagstand that instantly respawn at every single second. Let's also add in water so we can go swimming underneat the flag and also low gravity so we can jump up off the flag stand and get boosted from one side of the map to other map and i think you get the fucking point hopefully...obviously no one in their right mind would load this map up, and fly through it and say OMG BEST MAP EVER....i think the general responce is gonna be "this is fucking SHIT!"

So Kud and Tim, where do you draw the LINE? A lot of the newer maps have way crossed the line and have alienated the fuuuuck outta me...I think i'll stick to playing in pub servers, way more competitive, way more fun.

The one map windigo has washme has one or two spawns that are in LOW MID, fair enough, I ask wndg what's your logic behind that, and wndg answer " I like to make hard to defend maps"...of course you would like hard to defend maps, someone who can barely shoot 30 acc and break 100 frags is gonna make a piece of shit map that anyone that knows how to dodge and jump and know's how to wipe their ass can cap the flag...Sad part is you'll never see windigo playing defense on any of his maps.


windigo's vision is to make maps NOOB friendly so someone like xpohb can streamroll a stacked defense with little or no effort...OF course wndg's maps have crossed the line. Every single one of his maps were built so he could run a solo offense and claim he has skill...Blackout picks diamondsword and with the new changes, he literally single handely...not even exagerating: solo caps all on his own juking everyone and swifting walking and strolling across to his base and windigo has the tenacity to say: Diamondsword is a teamplay map man, requires sooo much team work...definately waay better than duku bleak or command...lol.now i'm getting off topic and into conspiracies..my main fucking point is...don't cross the fucking line...DO NOT FUCKING CROSS THE LINE PLEASE! Less RETARD GImmick shit maps and more SIMPLY MAPS please...The most simplistic maps are probably are best maps we have ever had EVER!. Much of these shitty maps cross the FUCKING line of retard ism. A+ for effort...F- for competitive thought process....Make your maps less CRAZY and more defensive friendly plz...


THANK YOU
Last edited by Junkyardboy on Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landlines

Postby dR3 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:24 pm

I´m pretty sure its landmines, not landlines.

That being said, i agree with jyb most new maps (if not all) focus on being able to solo cap. I know the original command isn´t playable anymore but most new maps take it to a whole new level. I also want to point out about every league here has had very stacked teams (most reg matches had every player >1k $), if next ictf league has 20 teams the talent pool will be deluted possibly making maps like dreary (random example) more fun to play.
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landlines

Postby Junkyardboy » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:27 pm

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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby kud » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:42 pm

i don't know why you keep mentioning me by name. do you think my map is too easy to cap on?
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby TimTim » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:10 pm

I'm confused about these assumptions JYB is making about kud and myself. I do see the following, however:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

:shock:

I appreciate your passion but damn man, all we ask is for some actual constructive criticism. Do you have any idea how difficult and time consuming it can be to make a map?

I agree that some maps are simply not worth the effort to try to improve, but there are plenty of new maps on the servers with promising layouts that just need tweaking. Instead of providing really general feedback like "Less RETARD GImmick shit maps and more SIMPLY MAPS please" and instead of creating some really extreme scenario(s), take the time to actually examine a map's layout and use your imagination to devise some changes that you think would make the map suitable for pug/league play.
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby Adventure Club » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:45 pm

Most, if not all of the new maps are made by offensive players JYB.
Out of the new maps that I have played, Mesmerize is the most balanced in terms of offensive/defensive capability to grab/defend effectively.

Problematic maps that I have played in pugs are:

Powerstruggle: Long flat low hallways with no obstacles = shit show; solution: maybe cut the mid bridges in half with a route between the two pieces or add a box or two? idk
EC2: Not really sure how this edit fixed the map since you have essentially eliminated high as a viable route to take the flag. Now the offense will have to take the flag low 90% of the time.
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby dR3 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:18 pm

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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby dR3 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:23 pm

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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby krazyaim » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:28 pm

I agree with jyb, of the pool, only mesmerize is good.
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby PACO » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:40 pm

JYB certainly is passionate about the topic and I actually somewhat agree with a lot of his points. The new maps that were introduced and given test-runs while I was running the channel were carefully curated and there was a lot of thought put in before slapping it on an IP and having people play. Some panned out and some didn't. No one wants to join a pug and be subjected to a lousy experience on a map that really doesn't deserve a spot on the rotation.

The solution is simple: Join a beta pug if you want to try new maps and experience some speed bumps along the way or join a normal pug if you enjoy your Duku in the missionary position.

JYB is the frog in this comparison and you all threw him in some scalding hot water. Let him get in and comfortable before turning the heat up. I have been keeping my eye on the contest and am actually lending some mappers advice/feedback because I see a lot of potential in some of the maps. I think that a few maps might not get a fair shake because so many people are put off by some of the more mediocre or adventurous maps.

TL;DR.. Separate beta maps from normal pugs and best of luck sifting through options looking for enjoyable maps.
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby spydee » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:59 am

part of the problem is people don't know the new maps so some players end up capping and meeting like 1 person, but yea some maps are inherently like that. theres nothing wrong with actually being able to 'solo cap' though and this is something that is a GOOD THING and is missing from the current meta of maps. what i mean is i think every map should have opportunities for a good player to utilize cover and work the angles so that during the reload of their gun they can minimize their chance of being killed. this would do a lot for increasing the skill gap and improving the game overall since everyone shoots 30acc nowadays and movement/ctf smarts are going down the shitter. fragging spawns and stuff is kind of teamwork sure but those maps where you NEED to have 2+ people in the base to control spawns to get out are poorly designed. (yes, spirit im looking at you). i prefer those maps which have many opportunities for cover/working the angles and giving a GOOD PLAYER (not a noob who runs around utilizing 13214324 exits) the ability to solocap and where teamwork simply makes it much more likely to cap (actually following the FC rather than sitting still spawnkilling players)

unfortunately there's been an influx of players who don't value this and would rather play iTDM, shifting the map pool away from actual good maps
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby detox » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:13 am

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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby Sauron » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:49 pm

Some excellent maps for teamwork were already removed from the league...like Grendel and Scandi. Maps like Anfractuous served well in pugs yet weren't given league consideration (no apparent reason besides a few lazy offensive players claiming it is too big, which is a load of crap). Maps like Grendel require teamwork to cap in most cases, but solo heroics are possible (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EAPjR3Cqjk )
This ignorant and narrow minded assumption that small fragfest maps are the best is absurd. Let the offense actually use teamwork and comms along with their individual skills rather than mashing everyone in a tiny map that leads to a bunch of garbage caps for the sake of no OT (OT maps can be incredibly intense and enjoyable, and the satisfaction of winning them is awesome).
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby spydee » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:30 pm

should add i think theres new maps that have potential for sure, just giving my opinion on what i think is a good map. its hard to balance the map with cover and angles while not making it have too many exits, or gimmicky with no strategic chokepoints or completely open areas. maps where the d can play mid confidently without anyone getting in the base ARE FUCKING TERRIBLE MAPS. bleak is a fucking terrible map (in ig), for example. this game doesnt play well like that...the defense needs to be in their base or be punished for being in mid (there needs to be some sort of risk for pushing up...like in scandi)

prob should have made a post on this before so people would make more maps that i like to play but whatever :D
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby Junkyardboy » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:14 pm

Maps that allow you to easily solo cap are NOT good maps. Here is a list of reasons as to why SOLO CAP maps are not fun
-You could be playing amazing on defense and still let a cap out to just ONE PLAYER(without any cover at all)
-You eliminate the role and importance of cover on maps(cherry picking now becomes a much stronger and viable solution on the newer maps). To add to that, cherrypicking is meant to have a risk associated with it, such that if you are cherry picking, you risk leaving your teammates fall behind with no cover...but the newer maps require minimal to no cover, thus making cherry pick an overpowered strategy.
-Defenders literally running with their heads cut off...defending used to be a shitty position to fill, no one wants to play defense...now it's even more shiiter to try and play defense.
-You end up with lopsided scores...

None of the new maps are fun to play defense on...they fucking suuuuuck. OKay fine, maybe they are fun on offense cuz you can ride a donkey while you grab the flag and still find a way to cap it, but very little thought process has gone through for the defense.

A lot of the pugs even on the most popular maps(duku,command,bleak,klondike) all end up with multiple caps...

The maps being introduced into pug play are literally impossible to play defense and hold the base down, yet 3 defense is a bannable offense in pugs.

Using the "give the map" time excuse, is the worst I've heard. With that logic, if we play ctf-lavagiant enough pug play, it should be good?

Anyways...if you want some solid advise coming from my experience...be a little more easier on the map for the defense and make only 1 or 2 rally points for the offense, not a jungle gym for them to go ape shit wild that lets them do a rain dance in mid before capping the flag.
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby TimTim » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:00 pm

JYB have you tried Byproduct yet? That map has all the dynamics you've described. Just out of curiosity, how many of the 23 new maps have you tried?
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby dR3 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:00 am

Pyrolize (or smt) might fit in to that as well, i haven't played it yet but spectated a couple of matches and it seemed to work alright. Mesmerize is also good.
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby unrealshots » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:41 am

mesmerizealt2 or w/e it is might be worthwhile idk about pyrolize though... I'm 50/50 with that map
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Re: No Shame, Banging Grenades & Landmines**

Postby Junkyardboy » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:50 am

Just looked at the screen shots of Byproduct...looks amazing...nice open space and doorways, seems very well built for instagib...havn't played it, so no comment beyond my initial impression(amazing)
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