KING OF THE RING #3 MAPLIST DISCUSSION!

[RickJames]

Searching is by definition not random Pattern recognition m8, exercise your brain

DAMN WHAT AN INTELLECTUAL GUY

[vitz^]

while i think that stalwartxl is one of the best idm/itdm maps and can understand some opinions that its all about looking down at spawns, i cant agree with the same for curse. For me curse is the exact opposite, you have to search for action and the places where there is action and spawns are totally different than stalwart - theres no highway of fresh spawners, only a very messy map with players in all directions. Its way less confortable.

For instance in stalwart u sit at garage and do monsters without even walking, i dont think theres a place like this on curse - nowhere near as confortable. Curse you are always dying in the back and spawning on the other side of the map, forcing you to search for the action. Stalwart you just spawnkill at the corridor because u know most ppl will spawn there. Theres no such thing in curse spawnwise, theres only a few good positions that allow you to frag more players. But hey, thats the same in all the maps, whether its curse or maleovolence or deck or any map. I dont see how and why such positions are not qualified as strategy or map knowledge. Having a map totally disconnected from itself in terms of spawns or rooms will remove any strategy possible and will make more room to randomness and luck. There will be no good positions to fight for, the fortunate player who had most encounters with enemies will have better odds at winning it (given they all frag similiarly).

Also, i personally think Seraphim is a bad map, because it has 3 floors and so it adds too much "randomness" to the game. Like rickjames said and very well, this is not about individual battles, its about everyone fighting eachother. A map that provides a series of individual encounters, even under the umbrella of pattern recognition becomes random on its own, specially in instagib. Pahgio on the other hand doesnt seem as bad in that regard, looks better leveled to me than Seraphim at least.

Anyways i dont care about maps, but if spawnkilling and chaos are the problem in idm/itdm then i think u guys are playing the wrong mod xD


just my opinion

[Cy]

have you ever played 1v1 iDM, vitz? doesn't sound like it.. sure knowledge of spawns came in to play, but so did knowledge of the map, player tendencies, player strengths and weaknesses, etc. that's why i always enjoyed the 1v1 iDM ladders back in the day -- it was a more true test of a player's ability against another's.

now, you're sitting here saying you think whoever can find the best spawnkilling spot determines the communities "top fragger" ? gimme a break son

[vitz^]

have you ever played 1v1 iDM, vitz? doesn't sound like it.. sure knowledge of spawns came in to play, but so did knowledge of the map, player tendencies, player strengths and weaknesses, etc. that's why i always enjoyed the 1v1 iDM ladders back in the day -- it was a more true test of a player's ability against another's.

now, you're sitting here saying you think whoever can find the best spawnkilling spot determines the communities "top fragger" ? gimme a break son

no, only nw. not a big fan of 1v1 ig but this isnt a 1v1 tournament though..

and i never said finding the best spawnkill point wins, but finding good positions on a dm based mod sounds way more appelative than running around searching for players. All im saying is position is actually a tatic, searching players is not. In a weapons game your position is conditioned by other factors (powerups, weapons, enemy position and stack).



in instagib your position is conditioned only by the enemy position. Turns out that if you find a spot where u can frag a large ammount of players - thats a good position (whether its spawnkill or not). Same as if you get a good position in idom/sdom will give you more points, thats all.

[csnafk]

this shouldn't even be a discussion... This should be a voting thing. Each guy votes for 5 maps, the most voted ones stay, and the highest voting is the finalist.

bingo.

It's like the baseball hall of fame, except we just don't fuck it up like they did this year and things get added to the list.

[PACO]

Nah that sounds way too democratic. We don't operate like that around here..

[detox]

Curse as the final map sounds fine to me. Voted cityzen btw

[fisk]

this shouldn't even be a discussion... This should be a voting thing. Each guy votes for 5 maps, the most voted ones stay, and the highest voting is the finalist

easily the best solution, and only signed up people can vote

[HuMPtY]

that sounds very democratic.

bad idea ..

[Morpheus]

that sounds very democratic.

bad idea ..

how did that work out for mlig? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[HuMPtY]

If you left things to a vote nothing would ever change ..just like CB no new maps in 10years! just play the same 5 maps but in a different order;p

Plus if people vote they'll vote for 5 similar maps.. variety >

[Morpheus]

not really..thats the thing all of us wanted acrony in for example (80% of pt and uk community)

And because 1/2 top clans didn't bother to even learn a already taught map it never got inserted for more than a season. And CB did listen to people because Gauntlet was removed after a while and grendel/bleak added

Democracy no matter what is the best route. All dictators in history said that what they did was in the best interest of the common people, and has history tells, it wasn't always like that. If it is in the interest of people it will eventually show in democracy. Democracy does not cut out new ideas/inventions.

As for the dictatorship implemented on removing all the maps i like on iTDM, adding not-so-good itdm maps and adding the only map i hate as the final map conjugated with the fact that is a 5/6 hour tournament (and other factors involved) are costing this KOTR 1 less sign up, even though i doubt that will matter regardless. My way to protest.

Democracy all the way bro.

[PACO]

This is a dictatorship. Said it from the beginning and I'll say it again. Just because it's a dictatorship doesn't mean that I don't/won't listen to what people say or what people want, it just means that I'll make what I think is the best decision after weighing all of the feedback. I'm not perfect and not every decision I make is the best one but I put a lot of thought into what I do and how I go about it. You can't argue over the results.

Suppose you have a government, they will operate and legislate for x amount of years. During that timeframe, the people don't go to vote over every issue, the people in power make decisions. It's not practical or even ideal to hold a community vote over EVERY topic. What's the exact definition for a democracy? Popular vote (minorities could get trounced)? Seats (Conservatives have a majority in Canada despite only holding 38% of the popular vote)? Most systems have their own inefficiencies and flaws.

Lots of dictators throughout history have been corrupted and oppressive however that's not me, my sole motivation is the health and longevity of this community that I have put in lots of time to build. The day I start rocking diamond hats with a haram of 18 year olds is the day that you will want to start looking for a new site.

Hundreds of players come through #iPug and hundreds are signed up onto GU. There are lots of divisive issues amongst the community so I play a balancing act and try to accommodate as many people as possible and mitigate as many situations as possible. It's not always fun or easy but it's something that I'm willing to do.

@Morpheus, I said during the first KOTR (year ago) that I would make changes to the maplist in future tournaments and I stayed true to my word. It's like a business.. stay the same and fall behind or innovate and stay ahead of the game. I try to model GU and my leagues/tournaments as the latter and there will be lots of innovations/tweaks/changes over the next decade. Curse is the final map and there is no reason that anyone should throw a hissyfit over it. StalXL was in the finals last tournament and now it's time for a new one. I suck at Curse (as evidenced in KOTR.II), but that's not a good enough reason to have my balls shrivel up and complain about the map since it's a good one where you can show off your skills.

[Banko]

I really just want DM-Codex in there. It is a great map but I think I am alone in this.

[csnafk]

I really just want DM-Codex in there. It is a great map but I think I am alone in this.

YES.

[Morpheus]

nothing against innovation just do not mess with the most awesome maps that everyone or 90% of the community love...i don't care which map is in the final maplist unless its curse.

I can outfrag lets suppose 10 noobs bots in any itdm given map but you give me a curse and i can only assure 7 out of 10 lol stupid but it is how random that shit is when it comes to 2v2v2v2 or kotr style anyway...

Don't think i am not gratefull for the awesome work, i like to believe that you claim this is a dictatorship but in reality that is only in your mind since you mold the structure according to community believes. This is the best community i have been involved (web). However this tournament is coming to me as a real miss. I love iTDM but just not this kind. 1v1, 2v2, 4v4 more of my style. Either way i like to think i know my fair share of iTDM, and i still think most of the maps considered (euro) are simply not good for this mode and even though you might think it is, if you are in it to win it, it isn't. Simple as that.

Stalwart in the semi's only allows further frustration, because i think i got a good chance at being at semi's and stal being at the semi's i think i might get to the finals and getting there and play curse the ultimate shit map vs guys like vitz and uenz that are sure to win it again and other 7 guys that are also really good its just too much for me.

At least make the last map votable, if community says it is curse, i will try to sabo vitz. LOOOOOOOOL

How fix is the curse as last map status?

Then again you don't want stalwart lol just remembered that :F idk

[detox]

[KNOCKOUTDAD]

[Sezco24]

Such a striking similarity

[rain]

I knew I recognized Paco's picture from somewhere.

[kud]

I always take a very liberal stance on map lists since the endless library of maps is probably one of UT's greatest assets, and I can see that paco makes an effort to appease. I'd personally like to see community polling account for 2 of the 5 maps, but I can also see that the maplist is 40% different than last KOTR. 40% turnover on maps from tourney to tourney is definitely acceptable to me. It seems to me like the easiest way to appease most vocal parties would be to cycle out stalwart/curse for the next KOTR. I wouldn't expect promises to be made for a tournament that isn't even on the calendar yet, but I do think cycling maps would be a fair tradition to establish considering GU's innovative roots.

[Adventure Club]

Remove curse and the map list looks fine

[faithless]

changed my vote from Tempest to Thursday so it may have chances...

[TimTim]

Seratim!!!

[Finalz]

changed my vote from thursday to cityzen, thursday has a terrible flow.